Brexit as The Phantom Menace: Why Starmer’s position on Brexit still makes sense when you look at the Tory clown car and how it needs to come off the road As you may have noticed, I don’t like Brexit very much. I know, I know, I barely ever mention it. Given that, why do I continue to support Labour’s “Make Brexit Work” approach to UK-EU relations? I’m not a Labour member; hell, I’ve never even voted for Labour at a general election. Given how Brexity they have become, why do I not only hope they win the next election by as large a margin as possible, but back their policy on Brexit specifically?
Sorry, but I will disagree. Not telling people facts or truth, not having a plan that can work in reality, not having a solid platform (human rights and social democracy instead of full-Corbyn socialism) for Labour Party is like getting the clown car off the road not with the help of police and roadblocks, but by jumping into a second clown car and claiming this is slightly less deranged.
It's still politics by populism. It still means voters can't rely on Labour doing the right thing - because there's no commitment to believing that human rights are important, that facts matter when dealing with reality, or doing a full reform across all sectors to cut most roots off of populism.
If Starmer is too afraid of populists now to say the right thing, he won't do the right thing after winning the election, either, because Mail and Sun and Tory politicans will still be mean to him, so he will try to out-tory the tories by doing populism.
Populism is bad for the country, even when done by Labour.
I do get Nick’s arguments and understand the reasoning. But for me ‘make Brexit work’ is not any better than ‘Brexit means Brexit’. It is still a slogan straight from the populist stable. That aside, Starmer will struggle to ‘get in’ as he is unlikely to get the support he requires from Scotland. In addition (1) he is against Scottish independence (I live in Scotland and I am in favour) and (2) his immigration policy is not much different from the Conservatives. I could go on, but the bottom line is that I have gone off K Starmer and, were I able to vote (I’m an EU immigrant), I would not have voted for him.
Starmer must have come across (presently undiscovered) brexit benefit. Or targeting some juicy cherries in a future negotiation ... god help his simple mind.
Sorry, I don't agree. Latest polls suggest 70% of the electorate now think Brexit was not a good idea, and that percentage appears to be rising. The main remaining supporters of Brexit are surely elderly white men who live mostly in the North of England who are unlikely to vote Labour in any case, so not worth bothering about. Labour needs to generate enthusiasm among the young people whose life opportunities have been sorely curtailed by the end of freedom of movement - a lot of them don't vote so Labour needs to give them something to vote for. A closer relationship with the EU leading eventually to re-joining would be such a cause. The rest of us no longer as young would also support this on economic and cultural grounds. Everyone was warned that Brexit would make us 5% poorer on average, but some didn't think that as important as the mythical "take back control" - now that inflation of over 10% has hit, maybe more of us will be worrying about getting that 5% back.
Oh, and your analogies seem a bit pointless - I didn't see that film and have never even heard of it.
Essentially this BREXIT is about England which as the largest population and had the biggest impact on the referendum within the 4 nations. This has led to the rise in the desire for Scottish Independence. The next GE the SNP will be campaigning on independence in Europe or being governed by Westminster. My point Starmer has offered nothing to Scotland and it is unlikely at this juncture that Scottish Labour will get much traction in the next GE.
I do see merit in Nick’s argument but at the same time why should we bail Starmer out? It seems the only people who matter in this country are Leave voters. Remainers have been treated with contempt for years (as well as being proved right). My intention is to send a message that we can’t be taken for granted and he’s going to have to come over a bit further to our side first.
The other problem is we can’t be sure things will pan out as Nick suggests after a hypothetical Labour election win. the Lab govt. may itself get into severe problems because the economy will be too damaged to deliver essential improvements to infrastructure, inequality and so on. Then it gets discredited and the right comes roaring back.
I disagree. What Labour attempts to do is to nail the Overton Brexit Window to the wall while ignoring the damage to GB reputation and the world-view of its younger generation. They choose triangulation out of a belief that people 'CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!' (Jack Nicholson in another movie).
Like Brexit, the Phantom Menace is about how to create a monster by not facing up to the dark force.
Excellent commentary by Nick. I am surprised that so many of the responses don't get it that the primordial objective is and must be to turf the Tories out and get a new government in place with a sufficient majority to change the narrative. Patience is necessary. Too many objectives or desires endanger the main objective.
Agree in the main. Only problem is how much divergence the Tories will try to make over the next 2 years between us and the EU to make any form of re-joining the SM and or CU almost impossible ?
Within the next year hostility to Brexit, 7 years on will be so tangible. If we don't diverge too much I bet it will be the Tories in opposition pushing Brexit Labour to join EFTA or similar.......that is how the Tories work and always outflank Labour.
Nick, you do make me laugh out loud. The Phantom Menace analogy is so funny. I think you are right, sad as it may be. We a) need much more pain and b) the Tory government has become completely unhinged and needs putting out of its misery sooner rather than later.
I understand the analogy. But I didn't think the film was that bad. But it's a film. It's as silly as believing football is more important than life (and I'm from Liverpool). Politics is about life and people need honest politicians if democracy is not to crumble. Starmer is lying about brexit and refusing PR. He won't be getting my vote.
I absolutely agree with almost all this, the only exception being (as a frequent M25er and close neighbour to this rotund road) that one does not drive down the M25, but round it.
Seriously though, this articles contains the single best description of our crazy current Conservative government that I’ve read so far in all this melee. And I’ve never voted Labour either. I may well in 2024 just for this reason.
My second serious point (and it’s very serious for our nation) is that I resonate with the Phantom Menace story. I never saw it but then I never bought in. That’s the point.
Remainers never bought into the cult myth of Brexit so they don’t always appreciate the cognitive dissonance being experienced by Brexiters who now suspect it was all a myth. And can’t cope with that, emotionally or psychologically. Helping someone - even a nation - out of a cultic belief-system (which Brexit is) takes time and compassion. Sadly, this we don’t have and the spell must be broken. It will happen, maybe in 2024 and maybe later.
But in the meantime, we do need to acknowledge there will be people who genuinely believed Brexit was the right thing to do, wandering about for a while with broken hearts. They will need help not scorn. They may scream at us not to patronise them and resist to the end but we need to humbly and gently try. For all our sakes.
Down at "The other Tory party" is a more in-depth explanation of how leaving voters with no actual alternative to right-wing tory politics/populism can backfire badly on Labour.
"The current mess the country is in would seem like the perfect opportunity to shift back the Overton window more to the centre of the political spectrum. Twelve years of Tory policies have shown conclusively that austerity and fiscal conservatism do not work, that immigration is important for the country, and that dreams of Anglo-Saxon superiority and Empire are not a viable strategy to generate prosperity. "
"I am not sure that strategy is going to work. What it means, de facto, is that the country will choose between three right- and centre-right parties – the Tories, the LibDems, and Labour – but there is almost no choice in England – other than the Green party perhaps – for people on the left of the political spectrum. Rather than putting pressure on the Tories from the left and the right – as would be the case if Starmer pitched his programme more to the centre-left, with the LibDems covering the centre-right ground – Starmer is creating competition on the centre-right, which ultimately may throw the next GE wide open – especially if left-wingers are equally disgusted by Starmer’s Labour as they are by the Tories and decide to stay home."
While I liked the analogy of Brexit as The Phantom Menace (and loved the Tory clown car), I disagree with it.
I understand the claim that people are too wedded to it to change now, but I don't think the evidence backs it up. All the polls are suggesting that the public in general, and leavers in particular, are turning against Brexit. I cannot see how that downward trend can possibly be averted when we're about to come into one of the most damaging economic periods in history.
By failing to recognise that the waning popularity of Brexit is dynamic and unnecessarily ruling out single market and customs union membership 2 years before the election, Labour is effectively locking itself into fighting the last battle at a time by which point Brexit will likely have only around 10-20% of people willing to say they support it.
Sorry, but I will disagree. Not telling people facts or truth, not having a plan that can work in reality, not having a solid platform (human rights and social democracy instead of full-Corbyn socialism) for Labour Party is like getting the clown car off the road not with the help of police and roadblocks, but by jumping into a second clown car and claiming this is slightly less deranged.
It's still politics by populism. It still means voters can't rely on Labour doing the right thing - because there's no commitment to believing that human rights are important, that facts matter when dealing with reality, or doing a full reform across all sectors to cut most roots off of populism.
If Starmer is too afraid of populists now to say the right thing, he won't do the right thing after winning the election, either, because Mail and Sun and Tory politicans will still be mean to him, so he will try to out-tory the tories by doing populism.
Populism is bad for the country, even when done by Labour.
I do get Nick’s arguments and understand the reasoning. But for me ‘make Brexit work’ is not any better than ‘Brexit means Brexit’. It is still a slogan straight from the populist stable. That aside, Starmer will struggle to ‘get in’ as he is unlikely to get the support he requires from Scotland. In addition (1) he is against Scottish independence (I live in Scotland and I am in favour) and (2) his immigration policy is not much different from the Conservatives. I could go on, but the bottom line is that I have gone off K Starmer and, were I able to vote (I’m an EU immigrant), I would not have voted for him.
Starmer must have come across (presently undiscovered) brexit benefit. Or targeting some juicy cherries in a future negotiation ... god help his simple mind.
Clive Page
just now
Sorry, I don't agree. Latest polls suggest 70% of the electorate now think Brexit was not a good idea, and that percentage appears to be rising. The main remaining supporters of Brexit are surely elderly white men who live mostly in the North of England who are unlikely to vote Labour in any case, so not worth bothering about. Labour needs to generate enthusiasm among the young people whose life opportunities have been sorely curtailed by the end of freedom of movement - a lot of them don't vote so Labour needs to give them something to vote for. A closer relationship with the EU leading eventually to re-joining would be such a cause. The rest of us no longer as young would also support this on economic and cultural grounds. Everyone was warned that Brexit would make us 5% poorer on average, but some didn't think that as important as the mythical "take back control" - now that inflation of over 10% has hit, maybe more of us will be worrying about getting that 5% back.
Oh, and your analogies seem a bit pointless - I didn't see that film and have never even heard of it.
Essentially this BREXIT is about England which as the largest population and had the biggest impact on the referendum within the 4 nations. This has led to the rise in the desire for Scottish Independence. The next GE the SNP will be campaigning on independence in Europe or being governed by Westminster. My point Starmer has offered nothing to Scotland and it is unlikely at this juncture that Scottish Labour will get much traction in the next GE.
I do see merit in Nick’s argument but at the same time why should we bail Starmer out? It seems the only people who matter in this country are Leave voters. Remainers have been treated with contempt for years (as well as being proved right). My intention is to send a message that we can’t be taken for granted and he’s going to have to come over a bit further to our side first.
The other problem is we can’t be sure things will pan out as Nick suggests after a hypothetical Labour election win. the Lab govt. may itself get into severe problems because the economy will be too damaged to deliver essential improvements to infrastructure, inequality and so on. Then it gets discredited and the right comes roaring back.
I disagree. What Labour attempts to do is to nail the Overton Brexit Window to the wall while ignoring the damage to GB reputation and the world-view of its younger generation. They choose triangulation out of a belief that people 'CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!' (Jack Nicholson in another movie).
Like Brexit, the Phantom Menace is about how to create a monster by not facing up to the dark force.
Excellent commentary by Nick. I am surprised that so many of the responses don't get it that the primordial objective is and must be to turf the Tories out and get a new government in place with a sufficient majority to change the narrative. Patience is necessary. Too many objectives or desires endanger the main objective.
Because what's the use of turfing the Tories out if Labour does mostly the same policy?
Another analogy would be Animal Farm when at the end nobody can tell the difference between pigs and men.
Agree in the main. Only problem is how much divergence the Tories will try to make over the next 2 years between us and the EU to make any form of re-joining the SM and or CU almost impossible ?
Within the next year hostility to Brexit, 7 years on will be so tangible. If we don't diverge too much I bet it will be the Tories in opposition pushing Brexit Labour to join EFTA or similar.......that is how the Tories work and always outflank Labour.
Nick, you do make me laugh out loud. The Phantom Menace analogy is so funny. I think you are right, sad as it may be. We a) need much more pain and b) the Tory government has become completely unhinged and needs putting out of its misery sooner rather than later.
Yes, I had forgotten about PR! Another one to add to the ‘missed opportunity’ box.
I understand the analogy. But I didn't think the film was that bad. But it's a film. It's as silly as believing football is more important than life (and I'm from Liverpool). Politics is about life and people need honest politicians if democracy is not to crumble. Starmer is lying about brexit and refusing PR. He won't be getting my vote.
I absolutely agree with almost all this, the only exception being (as a frequent M25er and close neighbour to this rotund road) that one does not drive down the M25, but round it.
Seriously though, this articles contains the single best description of our crazy current Conservative government that I’ve read so far in all this melee. And I’ve never voted Labour either. I may well in 2024 just for this reason.
My second serious point (and it’s very serious for our nation) is that I resonate with the Phantom Menace story. I never saw it but then I never bought in. That’s the point.
Remainers never bought into the cult myth of Brexit so they don’t always appreciate the cognitive dissonance being experienced by Brexiters who now suspect it was all a myth. And can’t cope with that, emotionally or psychologically. Helping someone - even a nation - out of a cultic belief-system (which Brexit is) takes time and compassion. Sadly, this we don’t have and the spell must be broken. It will happen, maybe in 2024 and maybe later.
But in the meantime, we do need to acknowledge there will be people who genuinely believed Brexit was the right thing to do, wandering about for a while with broken hearts. They will need help not scorn. They may scream at us not to patronise them and resist to the end but we need to humbly and gently try. For all our sakes.
Here: https://www.gerhardschnyder.com/brexit-impact-tracker/2022/11/27/neverwhere-brexit-britain-after-singapore-on-thames-switzerland-or-silicon-valley
Down at "The other Tory party" is a more in-depth explanation of how leaving voters with no actual alternative to right-wing tory politics/populism can backfire badly on Labour.
"The current mess the country is in would seem like the perfect opportunity to shift back the Overton window more to the centre of the political spectrum. Twelve years of Tory policies have shown conclusively that austerity and fiscal conservatism do not work, that immigration is important for the country, and that dreams of Anglo-Saxon superiority and Empire are not a viable strategy to generate prosperity. "
"I am not sure that strategy is going to work. What it means, de facto, is that the country will choose between three right- and centre-right parties – the Tories, the LibDems, and Labour – but there is almost no choice in England – other than the Green party perhaps – for people on the left of the political spectrum. Rather than putting pressure on the Tories from the left and the right – as would be the case if Starmer pitched his programme more to the centre-left, with the LibDems covering the centre-right ground – Starmer is creating competition on the centre-right, which ultimately may throw the next GE wide open – especially if left-wingers are equally disgusted by Starmer’s Labour as they are by the Tories and decide to stay home."
While I liked the analogy of Brexit as The Phantom Menace (and loved the Tory clown car), I disagree with it.
I understand the claim that people are too wedded to it to change now, but I don't think the evidence backs it up. All the polls are suggesting that the public in general, and leavers in particular, are turning against Brexit. I cannot see how that downward trend can possibly be averted when we're about to come into one of the most damaging economic periods in history.
By failing to recognise that the waning popularity of Brexit is dynamic and unnecessarily ruling out single market and customs union membership 2 years before the election, Labour is effectively locking itself into fighting the last battle at a time by which point Brexit will likely have only around 10-20% of people willing to say they support it.
Great article - now changed my mind re Starmer's stance on Brexit