I agree with you re: the left and Syria and with the general point that Palestine is an odd obsession. And I agree the Iranian regime is 'the bad guy'. But there can be multiple bad guys.
As you say, Assad was the bad guy, but now he's gone, and the new Syrian regime has not said or acted anything against Israel, Netanyahu has still been bombing the country, invading it and destabilising it, making it harder for Syrians to rebuild and hopefully in time democratise.
I hope for the overthrow of the Iranian regime and if Israel's actions now help bring that about, I'll be pleased. But I'm not convinced that's actually Israel's aim, and it could undermine the legitimacy of Iranians struggling against their government. And it could well me buttress the regime.
There is also the point that while Iran is obviously a long term threat to Israel, it's pretty dubious to say that Israel has a legal right to attack.
Finally, for all of Hamas' awfulness, Israel's actions against the Palestinians are clearly not motivated solely by self preservation. Even if you accepted the argument for what they're doing in Gaza, Israel's actions in the West Bank are clearly nothing to do with fighting Hamas' and everything to do with extending the occupation and attempting to make a two state solution impossible.
Sometimes bad guys do things which have positive outcomes. Perhaps Israels actions now will be such an occasion though I doubt it. Certainly the Iranian regime is a 'bad guy'. But so is the current Israeli regime.
Odd not because the Palestinians don't deserve justice and their own state. Odd because many focus on Palestine to the exclusion of many other injustices, including those where similar principles are at stake. Nick mentioned Syria in his article. Many pro Palestinian people were happy for Assad to slaughter Syrians - and Palestinians.
Have now watched your video, and as per my comments on Youtube, once again I have to say what a good video it was. A very interesting, reasoned and reasonable take on the subject - one more interesting than the title would suggest.
I do appreciate your continued interest in Syria. I do feel it's a subject by which it's been possible to judge those on the left and the seriousness of their commitment to human rights.
Thanks, Jonathan. I agree fully on your Syria point and sadly, on the "seriousness of commitment" point, it is one that was failed far too many times by people. You were a great ally in that, which I will always appreciate.
Even now it's still a good indication (not foolproof, but a good indication) as to whether allies are worth having.
A couple of weeks ago I arranged for a briefing in Portcullis House for Lib Dem MPs on Syria. They heard from a journalist who'd been there in March, a Syrian councillor, another Syrian who's heavily involved in healthcare provision and one of the co-editors of Syria Notes. It was really interesting.
Thank you for your efforts for Syrians over the years too.
The horror of October 7th does not make defending the Palestinian position hard. Hamas and what it did do not represent Palestinians as a whole, and supporting Palestinian civilians in Gaza isn't supporting Hamas and terrorism.
Iran's theocracy maybe the bad guys overall, but Israel's unilateral and unprovoked attack is indefensible. It's a continuation of Netanyahu's offensive actions to sustain his political position at home.
Yes, you are correct that Israel's actions over the last 18 months have been appalling and unforgivable.
If only there were a pro-Palestine movement that wasn't riddled with Hamas sympathisers and antisemites. Never forget they started "protesting" on October 8th, after the initial atrocities but before a single Israeli soldier had set foot in Gaza. At that stage the marches couldn't possibly have been in opposition to the Israeli invasion because it hadn't happened yet. Instead, they were celebrations of a monstrous attack.
Truly, with friends like these, who even needs enemies?
That's a lot of generalisations Alex. Also it's hard to distance yourself from Hamas and antisemitism when much of the press assumes protesters support Hamas and Israel accuses all voices against it as antisemitic and pro-terrorist. How on earth can any protest movement ensure those with radical views don't attach themselves to it? How does that devalue such protests?
By coincidence, I had dinner with Iranian exile friends last night in London, and their view was that exactly the right people had been eliminated in the Iranian hierarchy.
Interesting take and I agree to some extent, but I think that one really should see Netanyahu for what he is - a man lacking any moral compass who will allow any number of innocents to suffer and die as long as he can stay out of gaol. He's as bad as Assad or Putin. On the other hand, I am constantly amazed by the number of people I come across here (in Scotland) who think that Hamas are some kind of cuddly romantic Robin Hood outfit, rather than the bunch of theocratic fascists who did not hesitate to murder their domestic (Palestinian) opponents as soon as they could, and who would impose a regime as repressive and nasty as that in Iran across the whole of Palestine if they could. In a sense they and Netanyahu are in a kind of "devil's alliance" -they both need the horror of the other.
The people of Palestine, Israel and Iran all deserve better. A two-state solution in Israel/Palestine is the only fair solution and the only one which would last, albeit it it would need a hell of a lot of outside support, given recent events, to keep going for the next generation or so, and as for Iran, the sooner its population is freed from the ghastly execution-happy old men who oppress them the better.
For what it's worth. The west, both left and right has been increasingly taught by trad media and now more so by soc media that the world is binary. Us and them, right and wrong, good and bad
Thing is, in the Middle East THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS. When the arguably least bad option is a former ISIS Brigade Commander trying to spot by western ethic the "good" guy is a waste of energy - because they're not Western.
They're born of a completely different cultural ethic (absolutely not religious). The clue is in the regional title - East. This is the East of Mamaluke, Suljuk, Ottoman and The Horde. It's a whole different paradigm which western diplomats and politicians are uniquely unqualified to deal with. Then a bunch of western immigrants set up shop there. With the inevitable consequences bearing in mind they're not even close to "good guys" either.
Trying to understand or to resolve this melting pot by western means is doomed to failure. Every time. No western imperial power has ever held sway or control for any length of time, from Roman to Brit, and that's a lesson worth learning
When you say that the left has taken up "this cause" and ignored others I'm rather uncomfortable with that statement. "The Left" is a broad church and there will be always someone in it protesting about a perceived injustice somewhere on the planet, whether its in Syria or Wolverhampton.
I'm of the left. I only vote Labour (very occasionally Lib Dem if tactically viable) and this is because they are the party that represents me. For what its worth I'm against violence as a principle, so my first thought on any conflict is how can we resolve this without just shooting back at them.
I also have the position that the Middle East has been a hotbed of conflict for millennia. The world, as a whole, has had plenty of time to seize the nettle and sort it out. But they haven't done so. Mainly because it's difficult, and whatever. (Love Island's on soon)
Clearly if there are nation states, or organisations, who have a stated aim of destroying another, who have tried already, and are ready to keep trying until they succeed then really the world should take action and stop it. But they don't. Because it's difficult, and whatever.
In the meantime ordinary people, like you and me, suffer. They watch their children starve and burn because the rest of the world can't be bothered to stop it. Which they could if they really really wanted to. Which is why 'the left' get upset and start shouting. Which is why 'the right' get upset and start shouting.
"Others, like Israel-Iran, are easy - one side is clearly the bad guy. And in this case, it’s not Israel."
So Iran is the bad guy - let's just let Israel carry on shooting, until one day they use the nukes. Because the ordinary people in Iran, who probably would like a bit of tender loving care, well they're just dreaming of a Utopian wonderland where ordinary children don't have to starve and burn. More fool them.
I agree with you re: the left and Syria and with the general point that Palestine is an odd obsession. And I agree the Iranian regime is 'the bad guy'. But there can be multiple bad guys.
As you say, Assad was the bad guy, but now he's gone, and the new Syrian regime has not said or acted anything against Israel, Netanyahu has still been bombing the country, invading it and destabilising it, making it harder for Syrians to rebuild and hopefully in time democratise.
I hope for the overthrow of the Iranian regime and if Israel's actions now help bring that about, I'll be pleased. But I'm not convinced that's actually Israel's aim, and it could undermine the legitimacy of Iranians struggling against their government. And it could well me buttress the regime.
There is also the point that while Iran is obviously a long term threat to Israel, it's pretty dubious to say that Israel has a legal right to attack.
Finally, for all of Hamas' awfulness, Israel's actions against the Palestinians are clearly not motivated solely by self preservation. Even if you accepted the argument for what they're doing in Gaza, Israel's actions in the West Bank are clearly nothing to do with fighting Hamas' and everything to do with extending the occupation and attempting to make a two state solution impossible.
Sometimes bad guys do things which have positive outcomes. Perhaps Israels actions now will be such an occasion though I doubt it. Certainly the Iranian regime is a 'bad guy'. But so is the current Israeli regime.
an odd obsession only if u don’t mind that your tax money is spent on a genocide
Odd not because the Palestinians don't deserve justice and their own state. Odd because many focus on Palestine to the exclusion of many other injustices, including those where similar principles are at stake. Nick mentioned Syria in his article. Many pro Palestinian people were happy for Assad to slaughter Syrians - and Palestinians.
Stfu genocide supporter
If you're trying to prove Nick's point that some on the left are unreasonably obsessed about Palestine, congratulations.
I'm not sure why you would think anything I've written is an endorsement of what Israel is doing in either Palestine or Iran.
😴
Have now watched your video, and as per my comments on Youtube, once again I have to say what a good video it was. A very interesting, reasoned and reasonable take on the subject - one more interesting than the title would suggest.
I do appreciate your continued interest in Syria. I do feel it's a subject by which it's been possible to judge those on the left and the seriousness of their commitment to human rights.
Thanks, Jonathan. I agree fully on your Syria point and sadly, on the "seriousness of commitment" point, it is one that was failed far too many times by people. You were a great ally in that, which I will always appreciate.
Even now it's still a good indication (not foolproof, but a good indication) as to whether allies are worth having.
A couple of weeks ago I arranged for a briefing in Portcullis House for Lib Dem MPs on Syria. They heard from a journalist who'd been there in March, a Syrian councillor, another Syrian who's heavily involved in healthcare provision and one of the co-editors of Syria Notes. It was really interesting.
Thank you for your efforts for Syrians over the years too.
The horror of October 7th does not make defending the Palestinian position hard. Hamas and what it did do not represent Palestinians as a whole, and supporting Palestinian civilians in Gaza isn't supporting Hamas and terrorism.
Iran's theocracy maybe the bad guys overall, but Israel's unilateral and unprovoked attack is indefensible. It's a continuation of Netanyahu's offensive actions to sustain his political position at home.
Yes, you are correct that Israel's actions over the last 18 months have been appalling and unforgivable.
If only there were a pro-Palestine movement that wasn't riddled with Hamas sympathisers and antisemites. Never forget they started "protesting" on October 8th, after the initial atrocities but before a single Israeli soldier had set foot in Gaza. At that stage the marches couldn't possibly have been in opposition to the Israeli invasion because it hadn't happened yet. Instead, they were celebrations of a monstrous attack.
Truly, with friends like these, who even needs enemies?
That's a lot of generalisations Alex. Also it's hard to distance yourself from Hamas and antisemitism when much of the press assumes protesters support Hamas and Israel accuses all voices against it as antisemitic and pro-terrorist. How on earth can any protest movement ensure those with radical views don't attach themselves to it? How does that devalue such protests?
By coincidence, I had dinner with Iranian exile friends last night in London, and their view was that exactly the right people had been eliminated in the Iranian hierarchy.
PS and they stressed that they were no friends of Israel
unfortunately for them pahlavi isn’t coming back 🤣
Interesting take and I agree to some extent, but I think that one really should see Netanyahu for what he is - a man lacking any moral compass who will allow any number of innocents to suffer and die as long as he can stay out of gaol. He's as bad as Assad or Putin. On the other hand, I am constantly amazed by the number of people I come across here (in Scotland) who think that Hamas are some kind of cuddly romantic Robin Hood outfit, rather than the bunch of theocratic fascists who did not hesitate to murder their domestic (Palestinian) opponents as soon as they could, and who would impose a regime as repressive and nasty as that in Iran across the whole of Palestine if they could. In a sense they and Netanyahu are in a kind of "devil's alliance" -they both need the horror of the other.
The people of Palestine, Israel and Iran all deserve better. A two-state solution in Israel/Palestine is the only fair solution and the only one which would last, albeit it it would need a hell of a lot of outside support, given recent events, to keep going for the next generation or so, and as for Iran, the sooner its population is freed from the ghastly execution-happy old men who oppress them the better.
For what it's worth. The west, both left and right has been increasingly taught by trad media and now more so by soc media that the world is binary. Us and them, right and wrong, good and bad
Thing is, in the Middle East THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS. When the arguably least bad option is a former ISIS Brigade Commander trying to spot by western ethic the "good" guy is a waste of energy - because they're not Western.
They're born of a completely different cultural ethic (absolutely not religious). The clue is in the regional title - East. This is the East of Mamaluke, Suljuk, Ottoman and The Horde. It's a whole different paradigm which western diplomats and politicians are uniquely unqualified to deal with. Then a bunch of western immigrants set up shop there. With the inevitable consequences bearing in mind they're not even close to "good guys" either.
Trying to understand or to resolve this melting pot by western means is doomed to failure. Every time. No western imperial power has ever held sway or control for any length of time, from Roman to Brit, and that's a lesson worth learning
“bad guys” this is why msm 🤡s like u r increasingly irrelevant
When you say that the left has taken up "this cause" and ignored others I'm rather uncomfortable with that statement. "The Left" is a broad church and there will be always someone in it protesting about a perceived injustice somewhere on the planet, whether its in Syria or Wolverhampton.
I'm of the left. I only vote Labour (very occasionally Lib Dem if tactically viable) and this is because they are the party that represents me. For what its worth I'm against violence as a principle, so my first thought on any conflict is how can we resolve this without just shooting back at them.
I also have the position that the Middle East has been a hotbed of conflict for millennia. The world, as a whole, has had plenty of time to seize the nettle and sort it out. But they haven't done so. Mainly because it's difficult, and whatever. (Love Island's on soon)
Clearly if there are nation states, or organisations, who have a stated aim of destroying another, who have tried already, and are ready to keep trying until they succeed then really the world should take action and stop it. But they don't. Because it's difficult, and whatever.
In the meantime ordinary people, like you and me, suffer. They watch their children starve and burn because the rest of the world can't be bothered to stop it. Which they could if they really really wanted to. Which is why 'the left' get upset and start shouting. Which is why 'the right' get upset and start shouting.
"Others, like Israel-Iran, are easy - one side is clearly the bad guy. And in this case, it’s not Israel."
So Iran is the bad guy - let's just let Israel carry on shooting, until one day they use the nukes. Because the ordinary people in Iran, who probably would like a bit of tender loving care, well they're just dreaming of a Utopian wonderland where ordinary children don't have to starve and burn. More fool them.