A lot of this chimes with my own experience, I think, but you’re always more disappointed by your own side. The centre left also struggles because it equates being ruthless about achieving its goals with being mean and immoral - but I definitely think we’re getting better at going for it. Sorry to hear you're feeling down. I totally understand if you can't face the slog of setting up a group - and god knows you do enough already to keep our spirits up - but it’s going to take someone like you who can talk to everyone and be friends with everyone, so it might as well be you. I hope you go for it.
One impediment that the Remain campaign had, but which the Rejoin campaign won't have, is that people had very little, if any at all, personal experience with both the "in" and "out" states.
So many promises the Leave campaign made sounded possible while at the same time many warnings made by Remain sounded implausible.
However, a Rejoin campaign needs to be more than just an attempt at reverting to "in", it needs to be push for better "in".
Not just about restoring what was lost but gaining things that had been seemed unobtainable.
For example not just reducing border wait times through return to simplified passport checks but abolishing border wait times by removing the need for passport checks.
Just one example, but living on the continent, this was one of the most impressive and memorable achievements of European cooperation.
Another idea : How about EU mutual recognition of tax free/retirement savings plans ? In the case of a re-joining UK for example, it would mean being able to retain ISA fund benefits when retiring or moving to the continent - a logical conclusion to one of Thatcher's most beneficial innovations.
We also need "Non Woke" characters on board.......ones who the right wing press could never describe as Wokish..........people who say a blokes a bloke and a Sheila is a Sheila, proud of our historical Empire our history, our Statues, our Armed forces, our Monarchy and that we should be back where we belong.... the Top table in the EU, driving through a pro Business agenda. Two types of character spring to mind, Jeremy Clarkson and Lord Sugar.
I've been thinking this for a while, but more on party lines. If we eventually rejoin the EU, it will be a (long in the future?) centre-right Conservative Party that takes us back in. Labour would never dare, and there are a lot of things holding them back: fear of the right wing media, fear of losing significant segments of the electorate, centre-left opposition, and probably a well-founded fear or reopening the debate on their watch.
Yes. Several times I have taken issue with people on, inter alia, the 48% Facebook site because they attack all the Tories rather than those Tories (and hard Left) who backed Brexit. I am no Tory supporter, and I never have been and never will be, but unless we recognise that those, as NT says, on the centre-right have a legit position and are as sincere in their wish to be back in the EU as those on the centre-left we will get nowhere. Back in my CND days I would never have believed that I would think that the likes of Michael Heseltine were "on my side", but I do now...
It is not a good idea to let party loyalty or hostility get in the way of consolidating efforts on a subject that is so clearly a dividing issue across party lines.
This already incurred massive damage during the Brexit process, allowing extremists like the ERG to drag moderate Leavers and even Remainers of the Tory party into supporting their position.
It is probably even more damaging for any Rejoin efforts not just in the sense of making it harder to rally support among MPs and the electorate, but also in the sense how these efforts will be viewed from the EU's side.
Makes a lot of sense. Contrast the willingness of Blair to assemble a team that would win, even if internally unpopular (Mandelson) with the tribalism of many Labourites who are more interested in fighting each other than winning.
There was a TV dramatisation of the referendum which included a scene - I don't remember the details but I think the Remain campaign realised they were losing and tried to get Campbell on board i.e. someone ruthless. I don't remember whether it was part of the same scene, but there was a point where one of the Tories close to Cameron was worrying about 'blue on blue' fighting and essentially not taking the kid gloves off because of a need to work with the Leavers after the (presumably victorious) Remain campaign. How much was made up for the sake of good TV I don't know - I certainly wasn't an insider on either of the campaigns - but that chimed with my perception...
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. While broadly agreeing with your argument I've always felt that Remain was hampered by a need not to compete with the essence of the Leave campaign which was a successful appeal to people's instinct that the status quo was not good. Leavers made many contradictory arguments - but anyone could find one they empathised with, and Leave offered a solution. Remain was wary of identifying genuine complaints about how the UK worked (or didn't) because it was scared of challenging the way the main political parties do business.
But all of that would support an argument that the centre right were actually not very good at campaigning!
A lot of this chimes with my own experience, I think, but you’re always more disappointed by your own side. The centre left also struggles because it equates being ruthless about achieving its goals with being mean and immoral - but I definitely think we’re getting better at going for it. Sorry to hear you're feeling down. I totally understand if you can't face the slog of setting up a group - and god knows you do enough already to keep our spirits up - but it’s going to take someone like you who can talk to everyone and be friends with everyone, so it might as well be you. I hope you go for it.
One impediment that the Remain campaign had, but which the Rejoin campaign won't have, is that people had very little, if any at all, personal experience with both the "in" and "out" states.
So many promises the Leave campaign made sounded possible while at the same time many warnings made by Remain sounded implausible.
However, a Rejoin campaign needs to be more than just an attempt at reverting to "in", it needs to be push for better "in".
Not just about restoring what was lost but gaining things that had been seemed unobtainable.
For example not just reducing border wait times through return to simplified passport checks but abolishing border wait times by removing the need for passport checks.
Just one example, but living on the continent, this was one of the most impressive and memorable achievements of European cooperation.
Another idea : How about EU mutual recognition of tax free/retirement savings plans ? In the case of a re-joining UK for example, it would mean being able to retain ISA fund benefits when retiring or moving to the continent - a logical conclusion to one of Thatcher's most beneficial innovations.
We also need "Non Woke" characters on board.......ones who the right wing press could never describe as Wokish..........people who say a blokes a bloke and a Sheila is a Sheila, proud of our historical Empire our history, our Statues, our Armed forces, our Monarchy and that we should be back where we belong.... the Top table in the EU, driving through a pro Business agenda. Two types of character spring to mind, Jeremy Clarkson and Lord Sugar.
Excellent point. As well as those names, I would add Charlie Mullins (Pimlico Plumbers).
Yes...he would be another excellent choice. Patriotic men and women, self made invariably, saying it as it is, not old Etonians or the Islington set.
I've been thinking this for a while, but more on party lines. If we eventually rejoin the EU, it will be a (long in the future?) centre-right Conservative Party that takes us back in. Labour would never dare, and there are a lot of things holding them back: fear of the right wing media, fear of losing significant segments of the electorate, centre-left opposition, and probably a well-founded fear or reopening the debate on their watch.
Yes. Several times I have taken issue with people on, inter alia, the 48% Facebook site because they attack all the Tories rather than those Tories (and hard Left) who backed Brexit. I am no Tory supporter, and I never have been and never will be, but unless we recognise that those, as NT says, on the centre-right have a legit position and are as sincere in their wish to be back in the EU as those on the centre-left we will get nowhere. Back in my CND days I would never have believed that I would think that the likes of Michael Heseltine were "on my side", but I do now...
Indeed!
It is not a good idea to let party loyalty or hostility get in the way of consolidating efforts on a subject that is so clearly a dividing issue across party lines.
This already incurred massive damage during the Brexit process, allowing extremists like the ERG to drag moderate Leavers and even Remainers of the Tory party into supporting their position.
It is probably even more damaging for any Rejoin efforts not just in the sense of making it harder to rally support among MPs and the electorate, but also in the sense how these efforts will be viewed from the EU's side.
Makes a lot of sense. Contrast the willingness of Blair to assemble a team that would win, even if internally unpopular (Mandelson) with the tribalism of many Labourites who are more interested in fighting each other than winning.
Excellent summation.
There was a TV dramatisation of the referendum which included a scene - I don't remember the details but I think the Remain campaign realised they were losing and tried to get Campbell on board i.e. someone ruthless. I don't remember whether it was part of the same scene, but there was a point where one of the Tories close to Cameron was worrying about 'blue on blue' fighting and essentially not taking the kid gloves off because of a need to work with the Leavers after the (presumably victorious) Remain campaign. How much was made up for the sake of good TV I don't know - I certainly wasn't an insider on either of the campaigns - but that chimed with my perception...
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that. While broadly agreeing with your argument I've always felt that Remain was hampered by a need not to compete with the essence of the Leave campaign which was a successful appeal to people's instinct that the status quo was not good. Leavers made many contradictory arguments - but anyone could find one they empathised with, and Leave offered a solution. Remain was wary of identifying genuine complaints about how the UK worked (or didn't) because it was scared of challenging the way the main political parties do business.
But all of that would support an argument that the centre right were actually not very good at campaigning!