How being pro-Brexit is actually the “woke” option in terms of the European question My sense here is that I am going to lose pretty much everyone with this article. But what I’m about to say needs to be said. It’s an argument no one is making and I feel strongly that someone has to, so it’s fallen on my shoulders to make it. Buckle up, bumpy ride ahead. I only ask that you read it all the way to the end before you judge my proposition.
No one needs to make the argument that Brexit is the woke option because Brexit has nothing to do with being woke. You can be woke, and pro Brexit. You can be an anti-woke remainer. They are not mutually exclusive.
Also you can be totally woke yet believe trans women are not women.
Your logic (woke is fanatical orthodoxy, therefore any fanatical orthodoxy is woke) is an obvious fallacy.
Exactly right. As far as I'm concerned, 'woke' means 'aware of structural inequalities in society', right? So the 'woke' will tend to work to correct these problems. It doesn't mean you just burn everything down!
This: ‘… woke leftism principally, which is seeking to undermine the moral foundations of western society.’ is complete nonsense. I’d like to think I’m ‘woke’, and I’m definitely a leftist, and I’m in no way ‘seeking to undermine the moral foundations of western society’. Leftism just means seeking a caring society, looking after the vulnerable, regulating business so that the big guy doesn’t always gobble up the little guy. It doesn’t mean global communist revolution. I think you imagine this is the 1930s?
Absolutely no-one says "transwomen are women". They say "trans women are women". The space, or lack thereof, is a shibboleth - the people who write "transwomen" are the sort of people who don't say that they are women.
There are arguments about why people write this, but fundamentally, it's just a shibboleth; pro-trans woke people include the space, anti-trans people use "transwoman" when they are not using a slur.
Most surveys of Labour Party members put “remainers” at 75% plus. So high few Labour MPs backed leave. Few unions backed leave. The latter reason being huge support for workers rights across Europe.
Now 40 years ago, Tony Benn and co took a different position. They felt, like Tory Brexiters, Europe endangered Parliamentary democracy. Few “socialists” in 2016 advocated leave.
Socialists wanting Britain as a North Korea of Europe seems to be imagined. Many Labour members want Labour to be a rejoin party. It is perceived too many Britons still love Brexit to say it.
Socialists were the least likely to want an EU break up.
I think you will find that quite a few socialists advocated leave. For a start, all of Corbyn's inner circle - Milne, Murphy, Murray, Fisher - which also points the finger directly at Corbyn - who was originally Tony Benn's political proteje in the 1970's. Other high profile Leave leftists include Claire Fox, Gisella Stuart (both now baronesses), Larry Elliot, the late Bob Crowe - and his RMT successor Mick Lynch. It's then official policy of both Socialist Worker and Communist Party of GB - so its inconceivable there weren't many tens of thousands of socialist Leave voters.
I didn’t say there were none. In fact you named almost all of them.
The followers of Benn. The most of Bennite left. Although Claire Fox started as a communist there are a whole load of them who mysteriously became figures of the right.
Personally I don’t think Corbyn understood what leave meant. I think he would go to his constituency and find his party was a party of remain. Then he would pop into his office and his dysfunctional team would make the case for leave. Total mess.
He eventually came down on the side of second referendum.
Generically “socialists” weren’t keen on leave.
Having named almost everyone on the left and some groups with tiny memberships I think you have caught everyone on the left who was for leave.
You are implying that all Leave socialists have a public profile.
I could also have mentioned the Spiked/RCP caucus - who currently manage to publish more leave stuff than the ERG combined. Or are you saying no-one reads and follows any of this - or Larry Elliot in the Guardian ?
Spiked is interesting. I regard it as the right. I see little “socialism” of any kind in it.
Socialists is a very imprecise term. If you accept that Labour is socialist then the massive percentage that supported remain would make it difficult to sustain the link between leave and socialism.
Very few Labour MPs supported leave. Again if you accept the probability that most socialists will be in Labour then this causes a problem.
Making the argument that socialists supported leave as a general principle denies that most didn’t.
Sorry; your proposition is pretty much nonsense. "Woke" people are generally those who are more aware of injustice and unfairness in society and would like to change that. Anti-woke people are generally realists who understand that life is inherently unjust and unfair. and will remain so, and choose to live with that uncomfortable fact, and who are impatient with woke pursuit of utopia.
What really gave BREXIT the victory? Personally I believe it was the result of a clever campaign by the City of London; the most powerful entity in the UK, who were very aware of moves in the EU Parliament to regulate the financial industry. The City and the world-wide web it controls have to maintain their contacts with international crime syndicates, multinational corporations and corrupt politicians/bureaucrats. This is the bread and butter of the City, the LME, the Baltic Exchange, etc. are all sideshows.
This lobby very cleverly used the mass media, particularly major newspapers, to manipulate public opinion. They also preyed on public discontent with other issues, immigration being probably the most sensitive.
Woke? No, just pure unadulterated cynicism, political dishonesty in its purest form..
The city definitely didn't want Brexit. Why would they want to lose prestigious and lucrative listings - like ARM plc - which has been a such a deleterious feature of the UK financial and reputational decline since 2016 ?
Also worth pointing out that most listed manufacturing and technology companies are technically "multinational corporations" - but that doesn't make them Microsoft or Apple - or imply they are somehow linked to your imaginary world of "international crime syndicates" ! It also stands to reason that if the country is to become less prosperous overall - this isn't good news for the broad financial sector - banks, insurance, etc - check out the share-price charts of Lloyds and Barclays and most asset managers since 2016 !
Recent research has shown that the outrageous Leave campaign was worth up to 13% points in the referendum result - and we know it was mainly a loose crackpot alliance with a small number of individual financial backers - like Marshall Wace.
Nick is associating a belief in brexit with a belief in wokery because both require suspending disbelief.
There are no tangible benefits of brexit unless you accept that the concept of sovereignty made some xenophobes feel warm and cosey. I suppose woke leftists must also feel warm and cosey on these gender challenging issues and identities, although they are more likely to wave rainbow flags and blow whistles, but less likely to eat meat and two veg ( with gravy).
Really disappointing Nick. I don't know if you wanted to try provocative and failed, or actually believe what you wrote, but it's disappointing in showing your lack of understanding and research.
I would expect a young teenager to write like this, but an educated adult should know better how to do research on what woke actually means, that it's not an ideology with blind belief.
Writing so long about Brexit, yet you haven't read any of the studies of how pro-Brexit belief overlaps strongly with anti-woke, right-wing beliefs? The roots of populism, as opposed to woke?
If your research and source-finding, and your understanding and insight gathered from them, is so shallow, it's not worth spending time reading your future stuff.
If you wanted to be edgy or something - and you wanted to use "Just joking" as excuse if this didn't go as planned - then you failed, hard, you look like either an idiot or a deliberate troll.
I'm sorry one article you didn't agree with makes you want to stop reading the Substack, but I must say, that sort of validates what I wrote here. Brexit has been taken up by the populist right and the far-left. That's just a fact - those are the main devotees of Brexit in 2023. Anti-Brexit feeling needs to be felt across the political spectrum in Britain to move the dial. Until both the centre-right and the centre-left are in agreement it was a mistake, we will get nowhere. Talking about Brexit as at least partly a far-left phenomenon isn't something anyone else is doing and needs to be explored for a variety of reasons. Anyhow, thank you for reading when you did and all the best.
I think the centre right (including myself) and centre left are in agreement that Brexit is a mistake. Unfortunately this currently doesn't suit the political class - but this could all change very quickly - just like the loss of a seemingly impregnable Conservative majority.
I see David Lammy now says the Conservative Party will have to officially support the reversal of Brexit before Labour- which might seem a clever way of squaring the circle - but in fact amounts to a political stitch-up where the will of the people becomes irrelevant.
No one needs to make the argument that Brexit is the woke option because Brexit has nothing to do with being woke. You can be woke, and pro Brexit. You can be an anti-woke remainer. They are not mutually exclusive.
Also you can be totally woke yet believe trans women are not women.
Your logic (woke is fanatical orthodoxy, therefore any fanatical orthodoxy is woke) is an obvious fallacy.
Exactly right. As far as I'm concerned, 'woke' means 'aware of structural inequalities in society', right? So the 'woke' will tend to work to correct these problems. It doesn't mean you just burn everything down!
Hi Nick Tyrone,
This: ‘… woke leftism principally, which is seeking to undermine the moral foundations of western society.’ is complete nonsense. I’d like to think I’m ‘woke’, and I’m definitely a leftist, and I’m in no way ‘seeking to undermine the moral foundations of western society’. Leftism just means seeking a caring society, looking after the vulnerable, regulating business so that the big guy doesn’t always gobble up the little guy. It doesn’t mean global communist revolution. I think you imagine this is the 1930s?
Best of luck,
Eoin O’Brien
If this is woke, I'm going back to bed
Absolutely no-one says "transwomen are women". They say "trans women are women". The space, or lack thereof, is a shibboleth - the people who write "transwomen" are the sort of people who don't say that they are women.
There are arguments about why people write this, but fundamentally, it's just a shibboleth; pro-trans woke people include the space, anti-trans people use "transwoman" when they are not using a slur.
Brexit is about international socialism.
Really.
Most surveys of Labour Party members put “remainers” at 75% plus. So high few Labour MPs backed leave. Few unions backed leave. The latter reason being huge support for workers rights across Europe.
Now 40 years ago, Tony Benn and co took a different position. They felt, like Tory Brexiters, Europe endangered Parliamentary democracy. Few “socialists” in 2016 advocated leave.
Socialists wanting Britain as a North Korea of Europe seems to be imagined. Many Labour members want Labour to be a rejoin party. It is perceived too many Britons still love Brexit to say it.
Socialists were the least likely to want an EU break up.
I think you will find that quite a few socialists advocated leave. For a start, all of Corbyn's inner circle - Milne, Murphy, Murray, Fisher - which also points the finger directly at Corbyn - who was originally Tony Benn's political proteje in the 1970's. Other high profile Leave leftists include Claire Fox, Gisella Stuart (both now baronesses), Larry Elliot, the late Bob Crowe - and his RMT successor Mick Lynch. It's then official policy of both Socialist Worker and Communist Party of GB - so its inconceivable there weren't many tens of thousands of socialist Leave voters.
I didn’t say there were none. In fact you named almost all of them.
The followers of Benn. The most of Bennite left. Although Claire Fox started as a communist there are a whole load of them who mysteriously became figures of the right.
Personally I don’t think Corbyn understood what leave meant. I think he would go to his constituency and find his party was a party of remain. Then he would pop into his office and his dysfunctional team would make the case for leave. Total mess.
He eventually came down on the side of second referendum.
Generically “socialists” weren’t keen on leave.
Having named almost everyone on the left and some groups with tiny memberships I think you have caught everyone on the left who was for leave.
You are implying that all Leave socialists have a public profile.
I could also have mentioned the Spiked/RCP caucus - who currently manage to publish more leave stuff than the ERG combined. Or are you saying no-one reads and follows any of this - or Larry Elliot in the Guardian ?
No. I am not.
Spiked is interesting. I regard it as the right. I see little “socialism” of any kind in it.
Socialists is a very imprecise term. If you accept that Labour is socialist then the massive percentage that supported remain would make it difficult to sustain the link between leave and socialism.
Very few Labour MPs supported leave. Again if you accept the probability that most socialists will be in Labour then this causes a problem.
Making the argument that socialists supported leave as a general principle denies that most didn’t.
Sorry; your proposition is pretty much nonsense. "Woke" people are generally those who are more aware of injustice and unfairness in society and would like to change that. Anti-woke people are generally realists who understand that life is inherently unjust and unfair. and will remain so, and choose to live with that uncomfortable fact, and who are impatient with woke pursuit of utopia.
What really gave BREXIT the victory? Personally I believe it was the result of a clever campaign by the City of London; the most powerful entity in the UK, who were very aware of moves in the EU Parliament to regulate the financial industry. The City and the world-wide web it controls have to maintain their contacts with international crime syndicates, multinational corporations and corrupt politicians/bureaucrats. This is the bread and butter of the City, the LME, the Baltic Exchange, etc. are all sideshows.
This lobby very cleverly used the mass media, particularly major newspapers, to manipulate public opinion. They also preyed on public discontent with other issues, immigration being probably the most sensitive.
Woke? No, just pure unadulterated cynicism, political dishonesty in its purest form..
The city definitely didn't want Brexit. Why would they want to lose prestigious and lucrative listings - like ARM plc - which has been a such a deleterious feature of the UK financial and reputational decline since 2016 ?
Also worth pointing out that most listed manufacturing and technology companies are technically "multinational corporations" - but that doesn't make them Microsoft or Apple - or imply they are somehow linked to your imaginary world of "international crime syndicates" ! It also stands to reason that if the country is to become less prosperous overall - this isn't good news for the broad financial sector - banks, insurance, etc - check out the share-price charts of Lloyds and Barclays and most asset managers since 2016 !
Recent research has shown that the outrageous Leave campaign was worth up to 13% points in the referendum result - and we know it was mainly a loose crackpot alliance with a small number of individual financial backers - like Marshall Wace.
Nick is associating a belief in brexit with a belief in wokery because both require suspending disbelief.
There are no tangible benefits of brexit unless you accept that the concept of sovereignty made some xenophobes feel warm and cosey. I suppose woke leftists must also feel warm and cosey on these gender challenging issues and identities, although they are more likely to wave rainbow flags and blow whistles, but less likely to eat meat and two veg ( with gravy).
Really disappointing Nick. I don't know if you wanted to try provocative and failed, or actually believe what you wrote, but it's disappointing in showing your lack of understanding and research.
I would expect a young teenager to write like this, but an educated adult should know better how to do research on what woke actually means, that it's not an ideology with blind belief.
Writing so long about Brexit, yet you haven't read any of the studies of how pro-Brexit belief overlaps strongly with anti-woke, right-wing beliefs? The roots of populism, as opposed to woke?
If your research and source-finding, and your understanding and insight gathered from them, is so shallow, it's not worth spending time reading your future stuff.
If you wanted to be edgy or something - and you wanted to use "Just joking" as excuse if this didn't go as planned - then you failed, hard, you look like either an idiot or a deliberate troll.
Sad, and goodbye.
I'm sorry one article you didn't agree with makes you want to stop reading the Substack, but I must say, that sort of validates what I wrote here. Brexit has been taken up by the populist right and the far-left. That's just a fact - those are the main devotees of Brexit in 2023. Anti-Brexit feeling needs to be felt across the political spectrum in Britain to move the dial. Until both the centre-right and the centre-left are in agreement it was a mistake, we will get nowhere. Talking about Brexit as at least partly a far-left phenomenon isn't something anyone else is doing and needs to be explored for a variety of reasons. Anyhow, thank you for reading when you did and all the best.
I think the centre right (including myself) and centre left are in agreement that Brexit is a mistake. Unfortunately this currently doesn't suit the political class - but this could all change very quickly - just like the loss of a seemingly impregnable Conservative majority.
I see David Lammy now says the Conservative Party will have to officially support the reversal of Brexit before Labour- which might seem a clever way of squaring the circle - but in fact amounts to a political stitch-up where the will of the people becomes irrelevant.