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Parcel Of Rogue's avatar

Nick wants the Tories to return to being a relatively sensible centre right Liberal Tory Party. They've done that shift away and are not going back any time soon, if ever.

Their biggest seat haul for decades was for Bunter in 2019 after he had sacked 20 moderate MP's including major figures and imposed a fascist style loyalty agreement on the rest re. brexit and him. Constituent views or interests and personal conscience be damned.

The Tory membership has had entryism and the deaths or infirmity of many old traditional tory types, leaving them completely interchangeable with the deregulatory Brexits/Reform UK, who won the last EU election from Tory votes and were financed by old Tory money, previously supporting UKIP. It's a planned playbook to hammer the Tories to the right, copied from the Reform Party of Canada which eventually merged with their Progressive Conservatives ( remember they fell from government to 2 seats under FPTP) to form a very nasty Conservative Party, which back in power, suppressed hundreds of science papers it didn't like. So much for their supposed belief in free speech.

In these days of conspiracy theories, the return of nativism, extreme views being amplified by social media to grab clicks and the demise of jobs for life and traditional work places, replaced by contracts, home working and the gig economy, where is the old Toryism going to come from? Les Nobless Oblige and it's hangover from feudalism is a relic from the distant past. Moderate Toryism is not returning.

Socialism and it's moderate form Social Democracy are now dead according to Yanis Varofakis. I am not so sure. His hard leftism lasted 5 minutes in Greece before imploding. The Soviet form is thankfully dead and buried but the coming info revolution will replace professional work with AI and at the same time take manual work and deliveries via robots, which can already be cheaper than minimum wage, taking into account a general purpose programable robot via maintenance contract, with no need for social leave, meal breaks, sick pay and redundancy pay etc. People will demand money to live, from somewhere, rioting if need be and only a big nanny state will be able to provide it, by taxing the robots and AI and their owners.

As for the end of the EU and it's breakup predicted by Farage. Nothing could be further from the truth. Globalism is going rapidly into reverse since lock down and the world is turning into regional trade blocks of EU Europe, NAFTA North America, the CPTPT Pacific, African Union etc. Supply chains had become too long and flaky. China is too unstable, thieving, over centralised and authoritarian to deal with. It's fuel, food, fertiliser & labour are all over stretched. It's too reliant on overseas markets and foreign made semi-conductors, but no longer competitive in the region or even with high tech manufacturing in North America, now re-shoring fast. It's the most over borrowed entity in history and it's population is plummeting faster than any country in history. It's firms given free capital based on how many people it would employ regardless of viability and it's property market collapsing. In 40 years China went from agricultural & bicycles to massive industrial power and 1.3bn people, but heading down fast.

The UK will have to choose between NAFTA, if they will have us and the EU. It would not working being in both as the standards are too different. All logic and economics plus democratic inputs suggest going back into the EU. We would have no parliament or rolling presidency in NAFTA and the UK would struggle to compete with USA. Plus there's a bloody great ocean in between to add costs and green house gasses.

Joining with USA, Mexico and Canada, would be made to be humiliating, as the Lend Lease deal and Marshall Plan terms were after the war. This time they would want to take over most of the NHS, especially purchasing to push up the price paid for U.S drugs. The other big one would be farming and food supply, which would be trashed to give the politically important U.S farmers some growth to supply us. UK farmers could not compete outside of organic and niches. They would supply all the big stuff with hormone injections, blanket antibiotics, GM gene implanting, intensive rearing and big doses of pesticide and other chemicals on everything. Expect levels of health and life expectancy to fall.

The Tory story of buccaneering Brits sailing the world to do business is a fantasy. The idea was predicated by literally taking guns to a knife fight and extracting whatever was wanted by force with a few beads, rum and drugs thrown in to try to legitimise it, which is how the British Empire was born. Trade is not free anyway, but like the the rules of the road. The EU never prevented anyone from selling around the world.

Sorry Nick, Heseltine's and Major's Tories have no major figures left and are not being replaced by the like minded, as seats come up. There's none of the economic basis remaining that created them. They are yesterdays figures as much as Disraeli, Gladstone and Lord North.

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münchner kindl's avatar

Good points all; but from outside, and looking at the toxic way both the US Republicans, and US White Christianity/ Fundievangelicals have been going the past 5-10 years - and they do have a huge influence on English-speaking Brits, via the Bannon-pipeline for right-wing propaganda: I don't have much hope.

The snowflake feelings-brigade - the ones triggered by anything, which is then labelled woke or socialist or anti-Brexit recently - is also anti-facts, because "reality has a liberal bias", so facts must go.

And as scientific studies have shown, people do become addicted to the outrage mechanism; people who deliberatly deny contrary facts and surround themselves with echo-chambers and yes-men do become dumber and unable to think critically, and people do start believing their own lies.

That affects not only the voters, but also their leaders. Right now, anybody who wants to help business and grow needs to accept facts and be rational - he won't have a chance to get anywhere in a Tory party where loyalty to dogmas is required to get in.

And since it's not voters, but members who decide the direction, and the members are old rich men who believe their own ideology and who are terrified of loosing power by "giving in" - accepting other viewpoints - nobody will get far enough to change direction, I'm afraid.

Which is bad for the country, not because conservatives are a good thing in my opinion, but because a competent, factual, honest opposition party is necessary part of a working democracy (which GB doesn't have, anyway), or a well-run country.

Regardless of how much of a disappointment Labour under Starmer will be, a honest fact-based opposition can hold them to account and stop bad ideas.

But these Tories will just shout the same lies as now, because they don't care about facts.

Your take on wokeness is interesting; I don't agree with your definition (because I think that's the twisted version from the right) but with the conclusion and that what you call liberal is the right direction.

But people raised in authoritarian thinking can not understand win-win: either they have total power, or somebody else has power. So sharing rights with women, PoC, trans, gay etc., to them means loosing power, so they fight.

They will loose, of course, just for demography, as you say, same as in US, same as toxic Christianity; but it's a hard battle like every battle when one side is backed into a corner.

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